2010-05-28 03:19 Russell Hughes: Sent on behalf of Madeline, one of her and Arakawa's favorite passages. "Twenty years ago, the Friend of Men (preaching to the deaf) described the Limousin Peasants as wearing a pain stricken (souffre-douleur) look, a look past complaint, 'as if the oppression of the great were like the hail and thunder, a thing irredeemable, the ordinance of Nature' (Fils Adoptif, Memories de Mirabeau, i. 364-94). And now, if in some great hour, the shock of a falling Bastille should awaken you; and it were found to be the ordinance of Art merely; and remediable, reversible!" From Thomas Carlyle: The French Revolution (1837)

2010-05-28 04:40 Marie-Dominique GARNIER: Thank you Madeline for this great text on "awakening", which has always been ingrained in that "revolutionary" name. I love Carlyle and recently fell in love with "Sartor Resartus" -- the tailor retailored, except that ART is doing the retailoring.

2010-05-28 05:05 cecile rossant: When I look over and over at the photos of the Bioscleave House and the Reversible Destiny Lofts and think back of my own experiences at both Gifu (even under construction) and Nagi, and the erupting body which these architectures co-generate - I am so curious to hear the accounts of those living in these terrains. I guess I'm speaking about the singular experience verses the daily praxis. I remember one day when working as an assistant to Arakawa how his other assistant suddenly jumped back from the canvas and screamed. He was literally assaulted by the matter before him. Working for Arakawa was never work it was a daily illumination. The daily experimentation, joyous exploration was a constant trigger to my own once I left the wonderful smells of the studio and hit Housten Street. I also keep on having an image of Arakawa running down the stairs to the lower studio to begin work - research, research, research - löve to you Madeline!

2010-05-28 05:13 Marie-Dominique GARNIER: could you say a bit about that erupting body, cecile ? and why did the assistant jump back and scream, as if assaulted by matter ? tell us more !

2010-05-28 05:25 Don Byrd: I just spoke to one of my students, just back from the Charles Olson archives. In a margin in Olson's copy of Black Elk Speaks, he found the note, "Shamanism pragmatism."

2010-05-28 05:25 cecile rossant: As I mentioned, I visited the garden of Reversible Destiny when it was under construction - it was a huge crater textured with hemispherical mounds - but still unpainted, raw concrete. I then returned to Tokyo. Several days later, I awoke with strange physical sensations, as if the mutual pressures between the convexities and concavities had entered my body - I guess then, I mean this is erupting body: architectures whose forms and challenges to our perceptions evoke new sensations. This is why I am so curious about the people who have the incredible chance to live their daily lives in reversible destiny architecture. Do they record their sensations and how their perception changes over time?

2010-05-28 05:27 Joel D. Robinson: I never made it all the way to Nagi when I was living in Japan, sadly, but I did get to the gardens at Yoro, and saw the ICC show of Sensorium City. Had a lot of fun at the gardens. What is so interesting about them is that even whilst it is being done in the name of a reversible destiny, the signs of the funerary abound - the elliptical pit that could be one giant grave, the tumuli of ancient burial grounds, the ruinous fragments that speak of worldly transience, including the Mono no Aware Transformer, which alludes to that whole literary tradition of which the 18th-century elegiac is the European counterpart. But of course this is where Arakawa's whole career begins, with the Another Graveyard series of coffins. Incidentally, the Osaka Museum is showing these pieces right now in an exhibition called Funeral for Bioengineering To Not to Die.

2010-05-28 05:29 Marie-Dominique GARNIER: yes, the coffins -- they are reversible you know ? they come from the French word "couffin", which means a baby's cradle....

2010-05-28 05:30 cecile rossant: As for the jumping and screaming assistant - I think he was assaulted by an arrow!

2010-05-28 05:31 Joel D. Robinson: hmmmm. i would never have thought of this. how fascinating! i wonder though, as i always thought they were a response to the senselessness of the a-bomb and mass death.

2010-05-28 05:31 Marie-Dominique GARNIER: an arrow ? the arrow, in greek: bios (excuse my greek): as in life

2010-05-28 05:32 Joel D. Robinson: the arrows that calvino spoke of?

2010-05-28 05:33 Marie-Dominique GARNIER: probably -- or heraclitus and Lacan; but Arakawa met calvino, didn't he ?

2010-05-28 05:33 Joel D. Robinson: not sure if they ever met, but calvino did write a piece on his paintings called "arrow of the mind"

2010-05-28 05:35 cecile rossant: Yes, they did meet I think several times.

2010-05-28 05:37 cecile rossant: We all struggle with illness, fatique, physical limitations and so-called physical accidents which shift our these limitations one way or another. How does reversible Destiny architecture play a role in healing? Certain medical treatments, such as osteopathy, can cause a very dramatic course of healing - to follow this course one needs a certain resilience – This readiness to experience sudden dramatic changes our sensing bodies seems essential to embrace the terrains of reversible destiny architecture.

2010-05-28 05:39 cecile rossant: I've got a few other questions: How is reversible destiny architecture changed by the inhabitant? Is there a mutual give and take process or engagement/ alteration? A leaving of tracks which become significant. Who is it who knows or recognizes this? Is the tracking of change important?

2010-05-28 05:45 Marie-Dominique GARNIER: this can only be answered by the "inhabitant"; but what's an "inhabitant" ? one would have to get rid, perhaps, of the ghostly h-words which haunt houses and inhabiting

2010-05-28 05:52 cecile rossant: Yes, you are right, Marie-Dominique, those ghostly h-words do have to go ...

2010-05-28 05:52 Alexander Duensing esq.: I think a tracking of change is important--yet when I think of this I remember how A+G really wanted to build structures for large groups ---- the house and it's inhabitants are too small and isolated to really track or gain traction on change. I suggested to madeline the other day that as an addendum to the Making Dying Illegal statutes that there should be a daily census of the segments of bioscleave

2010-05-28 05:54 Alexander Duensing esq.: I think we need to be surrounded by that which brings us together to fearlessly and unabashedly examine that which contributes (or hinders) our reversible destiny.

2010-05-28 05:55 cecile rossant: Can you say a bit more about what you mean by a daily census of the segments of bioscleave ... onegaishimasu #

2010-05-28 05:58 Alexander Duensing esq.: Sure. I think that (it should be suggested) that there be a law requiring all persons to record their biodata daily. Also they should be required to note any attempts/procedures that they employed to achieve wellness and reversible destiny. I think we die in part because we lack this information.

2010-05-28 06:00 guest-18: testing

2010-05-28 06:01 guest-18: ok, it appears for those without active logins to the site you can still compose and send. This can only be a good thing ... though would be good if you could identify yourselves ...

2010-05-28 06:02 Alexander Duensing esq.: Because we are perhaps too concerned with organisms that person---than with bioscleave--or the whole of organisms that people. As it stands, it is like a person trying to get a clear picture of his or her health by exclusively examining one body part. Indeed, that part may speak volumes---but is it enough?

2010-05-28 06:03 guest-23: Thank you Madeline, for being here. I was just thinking about how Arakawa seemed so perfectly prepared to put art "in the service of the mind" as Duchamp would put it, but also to insist that one cannot separate the mind and the body.

2010-05-28 06:03 Alexander Duensing esq.: for the census the biodata and proceedures would be collected into a publicly available database

2010-05-28 06:05 Patricia Glazebrook: Hi Madeline. How are you?

2010-05-28 06:05 Madeline Gins: smashed to pieces but

2010-05-28 06:06 Melissa Smedley: Hi Madeline

2010-05-28 06:07 Bob Dobbs: Hi Madeline from Maui - Carolyn's here, too

2010-05-28 06:07 David Kolb: Madeline, Anne is here with me and we both say hi.

2010-05-28 06:08 Alan Prohm: Hello Madeline love to all pieces

2010-05-28 06:08 Madeline Gins: Hi and hi. Do we call it an Un-Funeral? And what do we want this it to happen as?

2010-05-28 06:09 Alan Prohm: and hello to everyone joining in

2010-05-28 06:09 Gordon Bearn: hello madeline

2010-05-28 06:09 Martin E. Rosenberg: Hi, Madeline: I posted as guest-23, but am here now logged in. How can we help you move forward from here in reversing the benighted destiny of our human species?

2010-05-28 06:09 Bob Dobbs: para-funeral? - includes all dimensions and spaces

2010-05-28 06:09 Melissa Smedley: About being in pieces, I fel with you. You've been a lot in pieces while you've been together too, while parsing, and you will be able to use it again soon despite the loss. And keep on in your dialog with him and the world.

2010-05-28 06:10 lex: Hello Madeline. just joined in.

2010-05-28 06:10 Alexander Duensing esq.: against the funeral--like architecture against death

2010-05-28 06:10 Russell Hughes: Alex - that would be splendid, to have a bank of all biodata gathered, as part of the communal devising. Madeline said this was perhaps part of Arakawa's undoing - that there was not not enough early detection, compounded by a continual refusal to engage, shut off in an attempt to cure illness alone

2010-05-28 06:11 Patricia Glazebrook: We wish we were there with you. I am glad you have so many friends with you. Arakawa was a great man. I didn't know him well, but I know that the surround you architected together is amazing and an incredible enriching place to be. I have been trying to think why/how that is so for me. And I think it is because all is open, nothing taken for granted, and the detritus of habit washed away.

2010-05-28 06:11 Bobby George: Hi Madeline, Your strength, is strengthening us all.

2010-05-28 06:12 cecile rossant: Yes, Madeline, love to all of you, all colored bits

2010-05-28 06:12 Martin E. Rosenberg: I second Bobby's sentiment; we have all taken strength from your drive to what follows next.

2010-05-28 06:12 Alan Prohm: re: pieces this Arakawa said one day about being alive: (from an interview I did with him and Madeline): each day each hour is a different Arakawa a different Madeline so we’re like not just a split being we have to be splitting all the time in order to talk this subject in order to act in this subject you see acrobatic way of living

2010-05-28 06:12 Jondi: Dear Madeline, I am very glad we can come together and celebrate the achievements of Arakawa and Madeline’s work together a t a time when we communally devise a way forward. I have strong memories of the intensity of sitting across the table from Madeline and Arakawa and still feel both the force and the gentle touch of those words and that working together. AG's generosity still sustains me and my pursuits.

2010-05-28 06:13 Alexander Duensing esq.: Yeah--actually, I think it would be a great if we could all realize that people love us and support us and want us to live even when our bodies do things that bother us, make us scared, embarrassed, or back us into a corner.

2010-05-28 06:14 Martin E. Rosenberg: It is amazing, Jondi, no, how much life was lived in clusters around that table in the middle of their Foundation studio!

2010-05-28 06:15 Alexander Duensing esq.: In fact, as a part of this (whatever we call it) --- I love you all and am committed to your reversible destiny.

2010-05-28 06:15 guest-28: we are listening, with you Madeline

2010-05-28 06:15 guest-28: guest-28 meaning Chet and Stacy

2010-05-28 06:16 Benjamin Basan: Dear Madeline and all: I'm glad we have this opportunity for more dialogue.

2010-05-28 06:16 Gordon Bearn: I, for one, felt lucky to be with arakawa and madeline, and you both always made me feel like i belonged

2010-05-28 06:16 Madeline Gins: This is already as I hoped it would be, but should we each try to name the response that will lead to the knock-out punch to mortality? A name/naming comes through each one perhaps and then they crash to form forward.

2010-05-28 06:17 guest-30: I also feel my life was revived around that table. Its Blair here.

2010-05-28 06:17 Melissa Smedley: we could have a feud with the funeral idea and see that the word rests near fetus and just keep opening the doors of newness that have been opened already by your thinking together.

2010-05-28 06:17 Martin E. Rosenberg: Can you talk a bit more about the "responses" that you seek to deal a death blow to mortality?

2010-05-28 06:18 Russell Hughes: Ok Madeline: so, a big one. How to continue the project given its founding member has passed? I know there is a way, just not sure what it is? Help!

2010-05-28 06:19 Alan Prohm: What this should happen as: there is clearly a strong backlog of celebration that wants out as we also move on to next punches. Arawaka was a tremendous is a tremendous and world-unique being. We are many who are grateful for encountering him.

2010-05-28 06:19 Eugene Gendlin: A&G have a hold of something special about death that runs through all their work and buildings. I can't say what that is, but I can feel it. Can others feel it too?

2010-05-28 06:19 Marie-Dominique GARNIER: yep eugene

2010-05-28 06:20 Madeline Gins: Not events but eventings --then what eventings to emphasize so that Arakawa --and us-- can continue fighting back, perhaps constructing forward rather than fighting back but but.

2010-05-28 06:21 Bobby George: Maybe it is an outpouring of love...

2010-05-28 06:21 Alan Prohm: More practically, a name for it, thinking of what Arakawa's dying does to dying: invent and assemble this: the disperse to everlast procedure.

2010-05-28 06:23 lex: Madeline, this first name you have offered, "un-funeral", points to something very awkward to bring up. We are all coming together here now, virtually, to strategize with you. But a "funeral" implies where people assemble to remember in the presence of a corpse. Is that something you want? If not, I think we should avoid this term "funeral" (or "un-funeral") while we are naming the action.

2010-05-28 06:23 Martin E. Rosenberg: Madeline, you and Arakawa have been so life-affirming and soul supporting for me and for so many others, that Bobby is right, that this is also a moment for us to support, to affirm through love and admiration.

2010-05-28 06:23 cecile rossant: yes, all the holes in the body through which to seep, slip-out and re-semble re-assemble...

2010-05-28 06:24 Marie-Dominique GARNIER: how about building a new collective name -- a blaysplay name, a blanket name that would include several -- as in the Bourbaki group of mathematicians (a made-up name)

2010-05-28 06:24 Marie-Dominique GARNIER:

2010-05-28 06:24 Eugene Gendlin: Madeline said "What eventings to empasize. . ." Can we go on?

2010-05-28 06:25 Marie-Dominique GARNIER: as to "unfuneral", I like it -- better than de-funeral, and not so too Joycean (as in finnegans wake)

2010-05-28 06:25 guest-34: Reuben and Joan have joined the chat. This is a test to see if we can post a response.

2010-05-28 06:26 Jondi: definitely, Gene, it is somewhere in the pulling apart and rejoinging the collective of thing in a state larger than it was. Madeline, there is the table around which the names can be put and there is the tabling of names but the process that joins is more like the water table rising from heavy rain and the spatial reserves the reversible destiny project opens in each of us

2010-05-28 06:26 guest-32: Ramona has joined the chat. Testing to see if I can post a response

2010-05-28 06:26 Alexander Duensing esq.: To love and to affirm and to admire and to contact our elected officials and to BUILD BABY BUILD! and to form a corporation, and to invent new terminological junctions, and to make collaborative documents. And to share what attempts we have been making to go on.

2010-05-28 06:27 Martin E. Rosenberg: Welcome Joan and Reuben! Please contribute to the sustaining ecology of those wishing to sustain Arakawa and Madeline's vision.

2010-05-28 06:28 Bob Dobbs: We engage this from compassion. As Marshall McLuhan's archivist I've spoken to him many times since his transition, with a friend who speaks with non-physical and is willing to speak Arakawa's words if you wish.

2010-05-28 06:28 Don Byrd: The first big punch was someone thinking up the possibility of doing it: WE HAVE DECIDED NOT TO DIE, etc. This is what A & G did. That is the test of seriousness. Art is not tragedy; it is not obedience to death cult. To become the procedure. Bodies are mushy and fragile. We have to get beyond muscle, bone, to the connective tissues, which are more ideas and abstractions than otherwise. At least until medical science gets better, bodies are patch jobs. I have a little stainless steel bridge holding one of my arteries open. We become the event. For a while it may have to hold to the body by a thread. The body is no more than a thread.

2010-05-28 06:29 Melissa Smedley: 'eventnings' have a lightening we can all use, because it seems that our planet gravity still is a factor in how we re-assemble as bodies.

2010-05-28 06:29 Patricia Glazebrook: we are re/assembling, re/membering against twisting destiny; this now, this here, not just memory, but working in place, tentatively holding ourselves together

2010-05-28 06:30 Russell Hughes: For Don: And those threads can be tied together, by what Arakawa and Madeline have devised. To rope?

2010-05-28 06:30 Marta M. Keane: Dear Madeline, my love to you and embrace, as you have embraced all of us through your work with Arakawa. I am thinking of something that Jondi said at Bioscleave House. He said first he found he turned inward unto himself, and then his thoughts expanded beyond his body to fill the space, to interact with the architectural surround. To Don's point, Arakawa has now expanded our architectural surround.

2010-05-28 06:30 Martin E. Rosenberg: I would like to hear from everyone, if possible, what were the "punches" the breakthroughs, that you received from the words and works of Arakawa and Gins, that opened you up to the world as a field of all possibilities? For me it was the recognition of cognition rising from the body, from the souls of my feet.....

2010-05-28 06:30 Don Byrd: Knowing, Russell. Everything in the library has to be converted from texts on how to die to how to live.

2010-05-28 06:31 Bob Dobbs: The general consensus is that "we don't want to die". We suggest that we start living. Overlaying that, we suggest Awakening.

2010-05-28 06:31 Alexander Duensing esq.: I think if medical science is our only hope we are in profound trouble---but if it is our only hope (or even if it isn't) we should demand that it be taught starting in kindergarten

2010-05-28 06:32 guest-32: I completely agree with Bob. We must live this precious life and not merely exist. Embrace every moment....

2010-05-28 06:32 Colette Rossant: Arakawa was a great friend He taught me to look at my work food as an artist and open Japan food culture to me also he was a great friend to my children. Both Madeleine and Arakawa were important in our lives

2010-05-28 06:32 Eugene Gendlin: Madeline said "What eventings to empasize. . ." Can we go on? AH YES, FIND THE REVERSIBLE-REBEL LEVEL OF BRING INSIDE OURSELVES. . . Hmmmmm

2010-05-28 06:33 Martin E. Rosenberg: If the guests could identify themselves......

2010-05-28 06:33 guest-32: guest 32- Ramona

2010-05-28 06:33 Marta M. Keane: To the point of becoming aware of how we interact with the architectural surrounds, how we are organisms that person, how we experience (fully) every sensation, every landing site.

2010-05-28 06:33 Joel D. Robinson: I mentioned the Mono no Aware Transformer earlier (one of the several ruins/follies at Yoro). What was being transformed there? What was supposed to be transformed there? A particular kind of sentiment, the kind of sentiment that attaches to funerals and un-funerals?

2010-05-28 06:34 Alastair Noble: It's hard to believe I met Arakawa & Madeline 35 years ago when I first came to the US from the UK as a graduate student. He was the one artist's I wanted to meet when I came to New York eversince our first meeting when he first invited me to his home to meet Madeline.

2010-05-28 06:34 Alexander Duensing esq.: Martin--I was so glad to hear about eventings --the way that a baby's finger strives to work with another finger --the way bioscleave brings together apparently disparate parts.

2010-05-28 06:34 Madeline Gins: Landing Site Palpating Procedure Bioscleave Fructifying Procedure Darlinka (Arakawa's tender code name for me) Biotopologizing Procedure (a new one for today).

2010-05-28 06:35 Bob Dobbs: Let's include the non-physical in this personing.

2010-05-28 06:35 Eugene Gendlin: yes find it inside ourselves

2010-05-28 06:35 Don Byrd: What's non-physical?

2010-05-28 06:35 Bobby George: Keeping thinking alive.

2010-05-28 06:36 Martin E. Rosenberg: Madeline, have we gone from "terminological junctions" to "procedural junctions"?

2010-05-28 06:36 Bob Dobbs: Non physical is the space provided in the cellular structure of the human body.

2010-05-28 06:36 Martin E. Rosenberg: This feels like a major step forward, no?

2010-05-28 06:37 Don Byrd: Thinking isn't physical? Living isn't physical. THe space provided by the brain is not physical space?

2010-05-28 06:37 Joel D. Robinson: How does one stop the waterfall of text (the word rain, to use M's term) here, so that one can read the contributions?

2010-05-28 06:38 Eugene Gendlin: Asking inside, Are you forward-rebelling or are you accepting being dead?

2010-05-28 06:38 Gordon Bearn: the physical may not be physical

2010-05-28 06:38 Bob Dobbs: It's not all physical. There has to be, in order for this system to work that you have forfeited you life for, in order not to die, consideration must be executed to consider the embracing of the larger completeness of the archetypal plan.

2010-05-28 06:39 lex: I'm also curious what Bob is getting at about the "non-physical." The architectural surround includes more than just the body proper--it includes--as we all have fondly remembered--the long table on the 4th floor, and the high stairs of 124 W. houston street. But, Bob, are you thinking of some sort of interface with Arakawa's words and traces in media? And thinking of that as a kind of "life"?

2010-05-28 06:39 Melissa Smedley: Let's let's step on something solid such as the nodules on the floor of the BiosCleave House or our memory of them.

2010-05-28 06:39 Patricia Glazebrook: Joel, try holding the right slider tab by holding teh left clicker on it, then it flits down but stabilizes back where you were

2010-05-28 06:39 Don Byrd: Shamanism into pragmatism.

2010-05-28 06:40 Eugene Gendlin: nothing is only physical, thats a split

2010-05-28 06:41 Martin E. Rosenberg: Don's answer to Bob Dobbs seems apt......Black Elk through Arakawa via cognitive science and architecture.

2010-05-28 06:41 Marie-Dominique GARNIER: yes, how DO they feel, those bumps ? have always wanted to experiment them. Outsized goose pimples ? grains of sand ? are they soft ? mellow ?

2010-05-28 06:41 Patricia Glazebrook: HI Blair. Thanks for your note. Happy to see you here now

2010-05-28 06:41 Joel D. Robinson: I'm a skeptic of the non-physical too. It's just another term for what we didn't understand before we all started talking about emergence, no?

2010-05-28 06:41 Bob Dobbs: The artifacts are included in our definition of his life but what of his unrealized creations? Otherwise, what's the glory in living and what's forever for?

2010-05-28 06:41 guest-34: Reuben and Joan Baron:

2010-05-28 06:41 Alexander Duensing esq.: it is clear that "physical" needs some terminological junctions

2010-05-28 06:42 Madeline Gins: Joel--Mono no Aware Transformer -- HOw wonderfulto have it here again now? I had forgotten it or. "Procedural junction" sounds promising Martin. How are you thinking of this new term? (Posted a bit late becauseI forgot to hit chat before).

2010-05-28 06:42 Jondi: I was thinkng thhe oposite, I have not been sad for A but my body has reacted to and from the hurt of a segment being torn away and dissipating into the face of things. the hurt of the expansion of self and the hurt of the contraction back to only what I can manage needs the time of the body, which cannot be convinced otherwise. I feel that the wake/waking is this time of the body

2010-05-28 06:42 lex: M-D: they are hard. and scratchy. yet comfortable! you can sleep on them and it's like a massage.

2010-05-28 06:42 guest-34: Reuben and Joan Baron:

2010-05-28 06:42 Eugene Gendlin: the nonphysical" separate from the physical, the split makes us leftovers from reductionism

2010-05-28 06:43 Don Byrd: Reuben and Joan, don't hit return until you type your message

2010-05-28 06:43 Joel D. Robinson: Turns out I'm thinking quite a bit about that Mono no Aware Transformer recently.

2010-05-28 06:43 Benjamin Basan: Martin: Yes, cognition as bodywide was also for me a breakthrough. I came to A&G's work through Mechanism of Meaning and have worked backwards and forwards (speaking chronologically) with their work, encountering many 'punches' (in a welcome sense). Arakawa's "Place of Saying" is a piece I come back to often because of the way that the canvas pushes us through the lived (the experiential) and the conceived (as a map). That art can do this so easily...

2010-05-28 06:43 Alexander Duensing esq.: perhaps sections of the mechanism of meaning can help to create those terminological junctions for "physical"

2010-05-28 06:44 Benjamin Basan: Joel, I'm having the same problem. Something of a workout for the eyes.

2010-05-28 06:44 Blair Solovy: Hello dear Madeline and friends. During the conference I realized that we never discussed the proicess of dying...that dying ius a verb, something people do. There is choice in some instances, along the way and that one project of RD might be to redefine the process in our own terms and to do artistic interventions into the medical sphere..(if you want your name toappear here you can register and enter that way)

2010-05-28 06:44 Alan Prohm: I would like to work - I'm sure many would - the project for years has foreseen collaborative and rotating research in environments disposed for that purpose. I would like to begin the rotation. Can we solidify the container to sustain the continuing? A pre-search institute practically speaking.

2010-05-28 06:45 guest-34: R & J Baron: For such a death there is no solace. Only a renewed effort to do more and do it better. A/G have offered us new dimensions of choice--new ways in the words of the Torah to "choose life".

2010-05-28 06:45 Joel D. Robinson: So others here are flipping back to the pages of the M of Meaning too?

2010-05-28 06:46 Alastair Noble: Since my first meeting with Arakawa & Madeline they have been a very significant apart of my life and that of my family. Stuart our son say's that what was special about Arakawa is that he could think of things in Squervally ways. We all miss him terribly. Our thoughts & love go out to Madeline.

2010-05-28 06:47 Joel D. Robinson: Yes, I can imagine the children loving him Alastair.

2010-05-28 06:47 Alexander Duensing esq.: I have it here in front of me Joel on the reassembling section. 8. Filling and casting

2010-05-28 06:47 Bob Dobbs: There is no split between physical and non physical, it's part of the whole and also includes the labyrinth of the mind. Otherwise the architectural plan will always be held as incomplete, and that's not a problem.

2010-05-28 06:47 Martin E. Rosenberg: Well, with terminological junctions we have intersecting planes of related terms often from distinct disciplinary practices and frames of reference--juxtaposed, so that they can "trade" zones of influence, or create hybrid epistemological tools. With "procedural junctions" we have an interesting possibility for juxtapositions of cognitive styles "surging" with each other for amplification? For making propriceptive and sensory distinctions? For opening up the "unthought" and "unfelt" into wholenesses larger than the sum of the sensory-motor parts?

2010-05-28 06:48 Melissa Smedley: Squervally - great word workout. Your son's word?

2010-05-28 06:48 Eugene Gendlin: Too much I just accept what seems unchangeable, ok the text jumps around . . . just recipient it feels inside.

2010-05-28 06:49 Alexander Duensing esq.: I think that is very astute Martin

2010-05-28 06:49 Don Byrd: The architectural plan is always incomplete.

2010-05-28 06:50 Russell Hughes: Madeline has asked that we tell you that if you're struggling getting the text to stay still for reading to copy and post the entire text into a word doc side by side ... it works for us!

2010-05-28 06:50 Patricia Glazebrook: I have to run off for a while and will come back. luv to all

2010-05-28 06:50 Madeline Gins: procedural junctions or procdural accretions or better proedural cleavings/bioscleavings

2010-05-28 06:51 Alan Prohm: remedy for any insufficiently procedural procedures out there

2010-05-28 06:52 Madeline Gins: And the Mono no Aware Transformer for you Joel these days?

2010-05-28 06:52 guest-41: It was a wonderful experience to be at the AG3 conclusion in New York and tentatively e3xplore the bioscleave house. I'm grateful to Arakawa and Madeline for exemplary direction, passion, and imagination in rethinking and redesigning the future of the species . I was inspired by meetings with Arakawa and by his work, which has laid the ground for much more to come. Wishing strength and courage -- which she already has in abundance -- to Madeline. Gary Shapiro

2010-05-28 06:53 Joel D. Robinson: Has anyone else here also been a bit dispirited by how the silly journalists have remembered Arakawa. It seems that a proper In Memoriam is in order. And yet, maybe not. What shall we call an obituary to a proponent of Reversible Destiny?

2010-05-28 06:53 Martin E. Rosenberg: Yes, I think that this is a major step forward, for it offers at the level of embodied cognition, the liberating potentialities that get opened up by terminological junctions: from the "shocks of thought" represented by terminological junctions to "shocks to the sensorium" through hybrid embodied cognitive procedures.

2010-05-28 06:53 guest-34: Reuben Baron: As a social psychologist, I propose that the group is "mind's environment". The architectural body we carry involves not a building, but a home to a social unit--the relation, the family, the community. There is strong evidence that the availability of social support attenuates the negative effects of many types of stressors. In Samuel Beckett's terms, the disintegration of the self is always preceded by the breakdown or absence of social connections. I would like to work with Madeline and others to help devise new procedures that will make use of these kinds of findings.

2010-05-28 06:53 Joel D. Robinson: Thank you Madeline. It sounds like a gift. I hope I am worthy.

2010-05-28 06:54 Alexander Duensing esq.: Alex likes the procedural cleavings/bioscleavings at this moment. But Alex needs different ways of holding it at different times.

2010-05-28 06:54 Alastair Noble: When visiting Biocleave House LI Stuart says that when walking on the bumps it felt like my feet were twisting in circles.

2010-05-28 06:55 Martin E. Rosenberg: Thank you for being here as well, Gary.

2010-05-28 06:56 Benjamin Basan: Reuben, that's interesting. So you have in mind some sort of emphasis on sociality, but not in a Jane Jacobs sense, presumably.

2010-05-28 06:56 guest-43: passing thru. Alex Gildzen

2010-05-28 06:56 Madeline Gins: The gist and double-gist of an obituary to a proponent of Reversible Destiny should read MAKE REVERSIBLE DESTINY HAPPEN.

2010-05-28 06:56 Alexander Duensing esq.: I think we all need different terms to achieve rev dest at different times

2010-05-28 06:56 Eugene Gendlin: hello DAVID KOLB!

2010-05-28 06:56 Joel D. Robinson: Oh, I've gotten into a muddle. That was a question I now see. Well, it was one of those interesting mistakes.

2010-05-28 06:57 Alastair Noble: Where now? Who now? When now? Unquestioning. I, say I. Unbelieving. Questions, hypotheses, call them that. Keep going, going … Beckett

2010-05-28 06:57 guest-34: Reuben Baron: I like Jane Jacob

2010-05-28 06:57 guest-32: Ramona: I like that Madeline

2010-05-28 06:57 Don Byrd: Reuben: yes, the surround is not individual or local. The oil spilling into the Gulf and the on-going murderous war in Afghanistan... these are our destiny as much as a truck coming straight at us or the nervous system going kaput.

2010-05-28 06:58 guest-34: Reuben again: Benjamin: I like Jane Jacob's work very much and share her view that we approach social problems in terms of a model of complex systems. Indeed, this is my approach to group dynamics.

2010-05-28 06:58 Momoyo Homma: Greetings, saludos, and Konnichiwa from Tokyo!

2010-05-28 06:59 Benjamin Basan: Reuben, I didn't mean that in a way directed at Jacobs necessarily.

2010-05-28 06:59 Martin E. Rosenberg: Thank you, Don, for bringing the Real into the conversation to give impetus to that which we must collectively imagine.

2010-05-28 06:59 Alexander Duensing esq.: Yes thank you Don

2010-05-28 06:59 Martin E. Rosenberg: Momoyo, thank you so much for everything that you have done to help realize Arakawa and Gins' vision.

2010-05-28 07:00 guest-37: susan gins:I'm here and absorbing.

2010-05-28 07:00 Marie-Dominique GARNIER: hi M H -- what does mono no aware mean ?

2010-05-28 07:00 Joel D. Robinson: Byrd has pointed to some things that suggest that REVERSIBLE DESTINY ISN'T HAPPENING. But it happens in hoping, too, no?

2010-05-28 07:00 guest-43: yes to absorbing

2010-05-28 07:01 Alan Prohm: Reuben - your point about social web is strong and supporting. Madeline it is perhaps clear that there is a broad thick tissue of density around you. I think small teams could be formed to take new or existing procedures and think/build surrounds for self-administering them. Reuben just proposed one. Concrete work can go forward on newold paths.

2010-05-28 07:01 Eugene Gendlin: yes, destinity . . .Not accepting "our" destiny, yes that isn't my destiny there's always also a BIG open

2010-05-28 07:01 Blair Solovy: these assaults on all of us and the entire surround-- I like Don, Alan and Reuben's idea of a common work

2010-05-28 07:01 Martin E. Rosenberg: The Vedas state that everything begins first by becoming mere intention.

2010-05-28 07:01 Melissa Smedley: Leaping back to BiosCLeave House and physical concrete nodes. leaving the Bioscleave house in transport to airport, i thought about how interesting it would be to actually use the house to be part of its patina. To perform sonic actions and accidental dances just because your hair would swing around in a whole new way. I think that further activating the actual architecture is a way to get more reversing going on.

2010-05-28 07:02 Hiroko Nakatani: Mono no aware means, "an empathy toward things," or "a sensitivity of ephemera," . um... i'm not sure if it explain well, though..

2010-05-28 07:02 Bob Dobbs: Every creation, realized or not is by intention.

2010-05-28 07:02 Martin E. Rosenberg: Or as Blake put it, what is now real was once only imagined.

2010-05-28 07:03 Don Byrd: Just, not to underestimate the forces to be opposed (I have an unavoidable break here. I'll try to get back. Love and be well.)

2010-05-28 07:03 Martin E. Rosenberg: Hiroko: this is what Francisco Varela means by "ethical expertise."

2010-05-28 07:03 guest-32: Ramona: Enlightened Beings or the Mahasiddhas have achieved the 'Reversible Destiny" or Immortality ... The ability to create one's destiny at will.

2010-05-28 07:04 lex: The Vedas also state that you should spend time at cremation grounds. Let's not bring up the Vedas, Martin.

2010-05-28 07:04 Eugene Gendlin: get more reversing going on! never underestimate those forces is surelyright, too eay nly to imagine, AG buld

2010-05-28 07:04 Joke Post: I totally agree Melissa, I think that we can do lots of daily research in Bioscleave House.

2010-05-28 07:04 Joel D. Robinson: Nakatani-san, you explain it well.

2010-05-28 07:05 guest-33: Jake Kennedy: Below us a little boy is on and of and from and for the Mitaka wall. I read Madeline’s & Arakawa’s texts/events as radical, ethical reminders that there is no gap/not ever, buster. In that forevering world (ours if we want it!), the responsibility is (totally? I think so!) to the us-ness-always of . be . ing . a . live … together. Therefore, let’s protect the future by each fiercely picking up a piece of the smashed-up Madeline and head on into the i-n-g…

2010-05-28 07:06 Joel D. Robinson: Martin, could you say more about ethical expertise?

2010-05-28 07:06 Madeline Gins: YES AND YES TO DESTINITY!

2010-05-28 07:07 Madeline Gins: YES AND YES TO A COMMON WORK

2010-05-28 07:08 lex: Yes and yes at Bioscleave House? And with some sort of "inauguration" rather than an "un-funeral"?

2010-05-28 07:08 Alan Prohm: About Don's point about not underestimating. I remember Madeline at the Paris conference saying, come on let's not be naive, there have been billions of people alive before us, and where are they? But clearly something has been wedged into the trap door and there is an asymptote to keep driving down.

2010-05-28 07:08 Bob Dobbs: Arakawa would say within the lines of cantilievered support beams that superextends the structure's capacity to withstand gravitational forces, is the process that you are considering heretofore.

2010-05-28 07:09 Madeline Gins: MONO NO AWARE - THE SHARP BITTERNESS OF THING- EVERYTHING

2010-05-28 07:09 David Kolb: Anne and I have to make some phone calls. Love to all, and, speaking abstractly, A/G's architecture wants us shaken to pieces, then tentatively renewing and re-assembling, when we're in pieces. Well, that's also what the community is doing.

2010-05-28 07:10 Madeline Gins: OF WHAT MIGHT INTENTION CONSIST ANYWAY

2010-05-28 07:10 Martin E. Rosenberg: I've always been profoundly moved by the ethical implications of Arakawa and Gins' work, and have mused at how much it resonates with Francisco Varela's Buddhist inspired enactment of a program of research into the embodied cognitive grounds for compassion. This resonates with Hiroko Nakatani's fine translation of Mono No Aware, which if you notice, is a pun on Mono (isolated subject) No (not fully) Aware (cogniscent of the truly distributed nature of cognition).

2010-05-28 07:10 Joel D. Robinson: Yes, and the sadness of transience. But yours was a Mono no Aware Transformer....

2010-05-28 07:10 Bob Dobbs: Let's start with "versing" instead of reversing. And then maybe destiny can be achieved.

2010-05-28 07:11 Bob Dobbs: Potential Destiny!

2010-05-28 07:11 Eugene Gendlin: Between the beams ...there is that BIG OPEN ... and inside me new versing is harder! It helps not to do it only alone,

2010-05-28 07:11 Marie-Dominique GARNIER: yes Martin, I suspected a pun on "aware" (or a ware ?)

2010-05-28 07:12 guest-37: susan gins: Yes to using Bioscleve house as the hub of activities and the physical emodiment of RD for now. Being there is being there.

2010-05-28 07:13 Madeline Gins: WELL SAID JAKE

2010-05-28 07:13 guest-34: Alan: The idea of small working groups sounds like a productive approach.

2010-05-28 07:14 Bob Dobbs: intention consists of deliberate creation

2010-05-28 07:14 Alan Prohm: Intention: landing with a purpose?

2010-05-28 07:15 Alan Prohm: Leaning into bioscleave. Opening the weave.

2010-05-28 07:15 Alan Prohm: Attention brings resolution. Intention turns walls to roads.

2010-05-28 07:15 Martin E. Rosenberg: Bob and Alan, I agree with creation and landing, but we must remember that all great creative acts occur beneath the threshold of conscious awareness. One can intend at the subtlest levels of attention.

2010-05-28 07:16 Joel D. Robinson: Ah, compassion is the link with Varela's idea of "ethical expertise."

2010-05-28 07:16 Martin E. Rosenberg: Ah, Joel, should have added that last connective, sorry!

2010-05-28 07:17 Martin E. Rosenberg: See the Stanford UP _Ethical Knowhow_ and elsewhere....

2010-05-28 07:17 Benjamin Basan: Reuben: I'm interested in how you might see Reversible Destiny moving forward on the grounds of sociality. Taking the Jacobs model, much of this would have to do with spatiality.The situating of private and public space (or rather the engendered porosity of both), the development of communities. etc. being important in so far as they are emphasized (points that I feel have not been as forcefully addressed as other aspects of the bioscleave).

2010-05-28 07:17 Bob Dobbs: landing with a purpose that is effective

2010-05-28 07:17 Alan Prohm: Yes Martin, but Intention is a tall guy and doesn't only happen at the top. We ride it too like a wave we are most unaware of, only the crest where we can keep track and proceed procedurally. The openness ensures the integrality.

2010-05-28 07:19 Madeline Gins: we do not yet know what landing sites consist of and so called intention eludes us thus far as well.

2010-05-28 07:19 Martin E. Rosenberg: We are in agreement, and as a jazz musician, I can tell you that there is a lot of baggage in the way for that intention to come up from the souls of the feet.....

2010-05-28 07:19 Eugene Gendlin: Ben see community focusing, psychosocial on focusing.org

2010-05-28 07:20 guest-47: Would the idea not be that it is not compassion as something like an afterthought but that the action of (carefully crafted) compassion itself is what produces a becoming- as a collective body - less mortal?

2010-05-28 07:21 Bob Dobbs: Arakawa did not die he went to a parallel world

2010-05-28 07:21 Martin E. Rosenberg: I too want to hear Reuben's response to Ben's question....

2010-05-28 07:22 Madeline Gins: Either a Mono No Aware Transformer or, at this dreadful moment, a Torment Transformer (?) As the Un-Funeral

2010-05-28 07:22 Melissa Smedley: Martin I have a great picture of you at the BiosCleave house, where the "souls of your feet" are not on the ground but facing the camera. Absorbing the air surround.

2010-05-28 07:22 Jondi: When I sat with AG and martin working on the encyclopaedia of mistakes, there was a discussion regarding the impressing of states of person and how self-states might be landing sites of the organism as organised segments of the bioscleave. Arakawa raised a question regarding the imagination – the loose transcript of the discussion went like this>> “is the imagination an invented cognitive configuration of he organism-that-persons which allows her to make mistakes that are not allowed in the natural (literal) selection process involved in the evolution of organisms? This would mean that the org-that-person develops differently than organisms that undergo evolutionary processes. In other words, organisms that person might be segments of the bioscleave still primarily organised by operations inherent in bioscleave. However, in order to have a dialogue with the bioscleave an organism must emphasise the separation aspect of the separating-joining condition of cleaving. This allows a fiction of place to develop and further along, it allow disperse-to-contrast tendencies to produce the imagination, which consists of the possibility to make mistakes on purpose.

2010-05-28 07:22 guest-46: It's at least wonderful that we are all gathered together in Arakawa's honor and enduring friendship --

2010-05-28 07:23 Bob Dobbs: not a dreadful moment

2010-05-28 07:23 guest-37: arakawa leaves a gigantic space that can only be filled with groups people working together for RD

2010-05-28 07:23 Eugene Gendlin: Opening the weave. I have to go Ill stay connected

2010-05-28 07:24 Martin E. Rosenberg: Thank you, Eugene, for your presence. I hope to converse on these topics some time soon....

2010-05-28 07:25 Bob Dobbs: RD what?

2010-05-28 07:25 Alan Prohm: Benjamin/Reuben: there is a measure of social connectedness, a micro-measure as one dimension of affect, and both town plans and lifestyle patterning can be evaluated on the basis of how much tissue they drawn on/draw out we could develop concrete proposals on these grounds, but would perhaps better start with a kind of diagramming take jane jacobs against le corbusier or robert moses, and find the measure the distances verticalities that go with the alienation the paralleling and overlap that bind and fructify

2010-05-28 07:25 Bob Dobbs: arakawa did not leave a gigantic space

2010-05-28 07:26 Momoyo Homma: Mono no Aware- feel the pathos of things or nature, apprecate the beauties,, we have this expression from the Heian priod. Arakawa often said "Jikan(time)", "Kuukan(space)", and "Ningen(human beings" have same Chines character"間

2010-05-28 07:26 Benjamin Basan: Thank you for the link and suggestion, Eugene. I will have to look over the site later this evening.

2010-05-28 07:26 Martin E. Rosenberg: Jondi: one thing that your account of that conversation suggests is that the relationship between organism that persons and a person, is the difference between evolution (a long narrative involving many lifetimes) and morphogenesis (which can involve short periods of intense transformation within a single life).

2010-05-28 07:27 Marie-Dominique GARNIER: thanks M-H-san

2010-05-28 07:27 Joel D. Robinson: the souls of the feet - good one Martin

2010-05-28 07:27 Martin E. Rosenberg: Reverse the last order so that morphogenesis goes first...

2010-05-28 07:27 Bob Dobbs: arakawa did not acknowledge time, space or human beings to his credit

2010-05-28 07:28 Joel D. Robinson: guest 47, your idea of a proactive compassion producing a becoming-less-mortal is inspiring

2010-05-28 07:28 Martin E. Rosenberg: It's so important to have Japanese language and culture sources when thinking through Arakawa's thoughts. Thank you so much Momoyo!

2010-05-28 07:30 Bob Dobbs: becoming-less-mortal is a fait accompli especially since we have arakawa he says he would not participate in this wordy words

2010-05-28 07:31 Benjamin Basan: Thanks for that insight Momoyo. I'd never put those words together like that before!

2010-05-28 07:32 Marie-Dominique GARNIER: have to sign off -- thanks -- never has a LIVE chat meant so much

2010-05-28 07:33 guest-44: Moving through bioscleave house, destabilizing the organism that bodies, clinging to cognitively spurred procedures to survive to get through the next moment. Moving through the speeded-up unraveling of our pastoral earth painting, clinging to cognitively spurred procedures to survive to get through the next century - finding Arakawa.

2010-05-28 07:33 Bob Dobbs: the phatic processhere is not serving us well

2010-05-28 07:33 guest-47: Martin: Varela's ethical know-how was based on the premise of accepting death; we are searching for an ethical know-how that overcomes it somehow - and that, it seems to me, is precisely why "compassion" is the key as a bodily quality/factor that changes bodily being to another mode (one that is carried by the reaffirmation coming in from all other, ubiquitously.)

2010-05-28 07:33 Jondi: thanks you so much m arie-dominique

2010-05-28 07:33 Blair Solovy: thanks for your insights marie dom

2010-05-28 07:33 Martin E. Rosenberg: Thank you Marie-Dominick for all your contributions these last months.....

2010-05-28 07:34 guest-47: Hi all, guest 47 is Johannes Knesl, i did no have time to "check in"...

2010-05-28 07:34 Bob Dobbs: ambiguously not ubiquitously

2010-05-28 07:34 Jondi: Bob, I am not sure the position from whchh you speak , But arakawa did participate in wordiness all the time, his way of talking in through around across, leaving off, starting again joining with gesture, gesturing towards sensings was a carving our ongoing suspension and attenuation of the possibility of meaning and the constant undoing of measure and value

2010-05-28 07:35 guest-44: Guest-44 is Rhoda Gilbert

2010-05-28 07:35 Martin E. Rosenberg: I can buy that distinction, Johannes, although, procedurally, not sure it makes that much of a difference, since I am only deploying Varela to better understand A&G. Still, its an important distinction that you make, as always!

2010-05-28 07:36 Martin E. Rosenberg: Welcome Rhoda!

2010-05-28 07:36 Madeline Gins: lol bob

2010-05-28 07:37 Bob Dobbs: arakawa tells us now that the wordy words he realized did not enhance the perspective being communicated so he went to a parallel to complete the old and did not die, he is available

2010-05-28 07:39 Joel D. Robinson: guest 47's term becoming-less-mortal struck me as apt, as i see rd as a process, not a snap of the fingers.

2010-05-28 07:39 Bob Dobbs: keep laughing madeline he's incorporating new architectural horizons

2010-05-28 07:40 Melissa Smedley: perhaps what gets called (dying) is something in parenthesis that we incorporate as we person along."PASS ANTENNAE THROUGH STRAINERS"

2010-05-28 07:40 guest-47: Martin: I think I said this because I have always felt that there was a strong current of something like a relentless compassion behind Arakawa's thinking and particularly his actions. Compassion , understood as an highly active disposition, makes friends with all that is - and that becomes a way of living on - in the sense of beginning again and again.

2010-05-28 07:40 guest-34: Joan and Reuben Baron: We have been thinking about Madeline’s invitation to us for this chat: What actions ought those working to help our species break free from mortality take in response to the death of one of the founders of reversible destiny? Consistent with our earlier comment about “choosing life” we think it behooves us to educate ourselves about the risk factors in our lives and in those with whom we live. We must do everything to minimize those risks using what we know from as many credible sources as possible—including but not limited to medical science. Furthermore, we need to be on the alert for early detection signs and seek help when we see them. In a social environment, we would do this with and for our families, friends, colleagues, etc. Our challenge is to develop architectural procedures that can help us to detect and remediate threats to life.

2010-05-28 07:41 Benjamin Basan: Alan, I may be missing some of your point here, so apologies in advance. The 'problem' with diagramming is that, generally, it sets the lived up against the conceived (to use some language from Lefebvre). The playfulness of Arakawa's paintings and, well, all of his work with Madeline too, is that it moves between the diagram and the lived. It doesn't 'start' with the diagram (even though one might say that by its nature as a work of art, it must start as a diagram).

2010-05-28 07:42 Joel D. Robinson: Interesting points Ben.

2010-05-28 07:43 Martin E. Rosenberg: I for one would like to skip the Moody Blues "Timothy Leary's Dead/Oh no no/He's outside Looking In" reification and deification of Arakawa in new age spiritualistic terms, because he was always so humble as a person and so aware that the process of RD was more important than an achievement in one lifetime.

2010-05-28 07:43 Bob Dobbs: threats to life - not a chance!!

2010-05-28 07:43 guest-50: McKenzie Wark here. Sorry to interrupt. Have two small children snapping at my heels. Pass antennae through strainers indeed.

2010-05-28 07:44 Martin E. Rosenberg: What an image of domesticity, Ken! Welcome!

2010-05-28 07:45 Joel D. Robinson: Thinking earlier this evening about the remarkable and yet unlikely similarity between Yoro Park and Wordsworth's Winter Garden at Coleorton Hall. Both are circular plots, with a spiral configuration (spirals being emblems of life and death, if you believe Paul Klee), both are planted with evergreens so as to shut out death, both were explicitly intended as beacons of life amidst death (W spoke of the sounds of water and birds). So, it would seem Reversible Destiny's history goes back, way back perhaps?

2010-05-28 07:45 guest-47: Benjamin: Agreed, an important point because A. did not work with diagramming in the Deleuzian sense. The point, to me, is precisely that these works "are" in and as a becoming a(nother) life of sorts, they are not semiotic entities nor are they just material bodies, they are moving (us) into a different being-bodies.

2010-05-28 07:46 guest-32: Ramona: Re: Joe's comment - Timeless..

2010-05-28 07:47 Melissa Smedley: Biocleave parenting architecture? Imagine if Ken's children could be gripping on to the sides of their house instead of his heels.

2010-05-28 07:47 Benjamin Basan: And with that image of domesticity, I must take the kids out. May have wireless so I may return...

2010-05-28 07:47 Bob Dobbs: and this para-funeral is not deification?! we cetainly don't mean that - arakawa is/isn't here

2010-05-28 07:48 Martin E. Rosenberg: Joel: I would like to see an essay fleshed out for sure, because the connection is powerful.

2010-05-28 07:48 Alan Prohm: Benjamin/guest 47 - A&G underwrite us to start or keep going well beyond the lived-dead divide when it comes to diagramming - the diagramming happens alive - capturing it is its own obsolescence, but nevertheless vital for observing the awareness aware of itself in real time - diagramming the lived community in this sense is finding a way to do justice to the urgent lived immediacy of things like knowing someone's downstairs who can take care of the kids, rather than getting lots of colored dots down onto the map.

2010-05-28 07:49 guest-47: Joel: The cited works are a symbolic-contemplative rendering of an idea, A/G are trying to leave representation behind and instead to get to the point where the signifying and the doing coincide.

2010-05-28 07:49 Bob Dobbs: yes,we're way back - cavemen

2010-05-28 07:50 Joel D. Robinson: That's coming Martin, and the Mono No Aware Transformer features large.

2010-05-28 07:50 Alan Prohm: Joel - another interesting point in the history, when Goethe took his poet-personing into a being gardener, (desiging the exquisite park at weimar) it was in response to the to-him-inconsolable death of a little girl.

2010-05-28 07:50 Martin E. Rosenberg: Alan, you mention what I think is: awareness of awareness itself (without an object of attention). What is this to you, and how do Arakawa and Gins situate that awareness, and how is it actualized?

2010-05-28 07:51 Martin E. Rosenberg: Here's a hint, Joel, if you want one: in comparison to Duchamp's Transformer......

2010-05-28 07:53 Bob Dobbs: arakawa says "cavemanian era"

2010-05-28 07:53 Blair Solovy: I like Reuben and Joan's reiteration of Madeline's question about how to continue the work in practical terms

2010-05-28 07:53 Joel D. Robinson: That's Lyotard's projection onto Duchamp, isn't it?

2010-05-28 07:54 Bob Dobbs: have no thought - take action - rinse and repeat - becaus eyou're not going to get anywhere

2010-05-28 07:54 Alan Prohm: Martin - one of the most alluring lines in A+G's writing for me come in this "excuse" for the cumbersomeness of an architectural passage: "Comfort is no longer a factor. That it might take several hours to go from one room to another in a reversible destiny house is of no importance as long as the sensibility of the person traversing the room flowers and catches on itself in transit”

2010-05-28 07:54 guest-47: Martin: re "awareness of awareness itself", I think is a didactic fiction or a conceptual mistake. Awareness is always of an other in relation to a "self" - or selving if you prefer, the pauses that seem empty look like awareness of itself.

2010-05-28 07:54 Joel D. Robinson: Alan - Good point. And we could certainly bring in Voltaire here o!

2010-05-28 07:55 Madeline Gins: We need to become adept at the constituting procedure Arakawa and I refer to as biotopological diagramming. Wielding this within a work of procedural architecture could boost our viability immeasurably.

2010-05-28 07:55 Bob Dobbs: very self-serving

2010-05-28 07:56 Martin E. Rosenberg: Yes, Joel, that is the title of Lyotard's book, which was written right before "Postmodern Condition" but Duchamp really did have transformers, I promise.

2010-05-28 07:56 Joel D. Robinson: What kind?

2010-05-28 07:56 Martin E. Rosenberg: I love that, Alan! That is exactly the morphogenesis that Jondi was hinting at.....

2010-05-28 07:56 Russell Hughes: I'll second that there Blair ... or third it (and so on). This is the source of the "Darlingka" or the "Darlingking" ... a mutual shared relation of care between the members of bioscleave, and bioscleave itself. Early detection is part of it, but more so looking/thinking/feeling out for each other in any and all capacities

2010-05-28 07:57 Russell Hughes: Joan and Reuben, have you got anything more to say on what you started?

2010-05-28 07:57 Martin E. Rosenberg: Let's talk of Duchamp off line anytime!

2010-05-28 07:58 Alan Prohm: guest 47 / I would invite you to read Zoltan Torey's The Crucible of Consciousness were he shows that is precicely what human mind manages; taking the awareness and reentering it reflexively it is explained there in very compelling terms that make a lot of sense of a fundamental poetic impulse which A+G contribute epically to fulfilling

2010-05-28 07:58 Momoyo Homma: Sorry, I just hit the key by mistake. What I wanted to tell was, as Martin is saying, A + G's works contain a lot to see with Japanese history, culture, and language, but at the same time, it is incredible that those works are univrsal and always wellcome everbody (I am sure because our office locates in Reversible Destiny Lofts MITAKA, where we are receiving hundreds of people from babies to their great grand parents, even insects and wild animals!?). By the way, there will be a very important talk event on the exhibition "Funeral for Bioengineering to Not to Die - Early Works by Arakawa Shusaku" held at The National Museum of Art, Osaka, tomorrow 29th. The speakers are Akira Tatehata (Director of the museum) and Shunkichi Baba (Director of Nagoya/Boston Museum of Fine Arts), both have relased beautiful memoria writings for several newspapers in Japan these days.

2010-05-28 07:59 Bob Dobbs: duchamp is right here - i'm still talking to him - many hours with zappa and mcluhan - originators of arakawa's methodology

2010-05-28 07:59 Joel D. Robinson: Homma-san, will any of those texts be made available, and available in other languages?

2010-05-28 08:00 Pia Ednie-Brown: Madeline > re wielding biotopological diagramming within a work of procedural architecture: would be great to organise workshops and gatherings at Bioscleave house to do more exploring along these lines.

2010-05-28 08:00 Joel D. Robinson: I'd be interested in what Akira Tatehata has to say.

2010-05-28 08:01 Blair Solovy: Russel-and being fearless especially in the face of fear and vulnerability and Madeline is sure leading the way

2010-05-28 08:01 Bob Dobbs: don't forget the five bodies architecturally speaking - chemical body, tv body, chip body, astral body and mystery body

2010-05-28 08:01 Martin E. Rosenberg: Are there English translations of those obituary-apprecations, Momoyo? We would be in your debt if we could get copies.....

2010-05-28 08:02 Bob Dobbs: let's not stay on topic here

2010-05-28 08:02 Bob Dobbs: that is the ambience of the present landing site

2010-05-28 08:03 Madeline Gins: The Un-Funeral, or whatever name we hit on for this Eventing, will consist of a communal devising of twenty or thirty architectural procedures that lead us to be biotopological diagramming along?!?!?! ?!?!?!

2010-05-28 08:03 Bobby George: Excellent Pia.

2010-05-28 08:03 Alan Prohm: Pia/Madelin/everyone: I dream of a research residency program. 1 to 4 or 5 of us converging for a period to tackle a procedure and invent/assemble with the means we have. It would be particularly important to organize the collaboration between various thinker/artist and those with architectural training and visualization skills. There are pools that could funnel more effectively than others toward architecture.

2010-05-28 08:04 Momoyo Homma: Yes, I am asking some people to translate them in English together with more writings by Arata Isozaki and Fumi Tsukahara also released in the past week.

2010-05-28 08:04 Bob Dobbs: tactility as an architectural being-spacesing is helpful to A&G as they knew

2010-05-28 08:04 Martin E. Rosenberg: GREAT! Thank you so much Momoyo!

2010-05-28 08:05 guest-34: Joan and Reuben: We very much like Russell's broadening and specification. We need to sign off now and we will read the rest of the chat later this evening. If we have anything to add, we will use the Forum to respond.

2010-05-28 08:05 Pia Ednie-Brown: a residency program, yes. this is needed i think. there is so much work to be done there. but time - periods of time to explore and absorb and reconfigure – are required.

2010-05-28 08:05 Hiroko Nakatani: Yes, and yes for viability immeasurably. That's what most architects are ignoring about.

2010-05-28 08:05 guest-47: As regards "wielding biotopological diagramming" - in the "real world", I'd suggest that teams of A/G-based designers should enter some of the increasing number of urban design- planning competiions - now that there is sufficiently wide-spread awareness of the ecological misery, and the bubble malaise.

2010-05-28 08:05 Martin E. Rosenberg: Thank you so much for coming Joan and Reuben and for being such good friends to Madeline!

2010-05-28 08:06 Bob Dobbs: arakawa did not see any ecological crisis to his advantage

2010-05-28 08:07 Russell Hughes: Mdeline: So Lex mentioned the Un-Funeral as an inauguration, to take place at Bioscleave. Given the to and fro-ing about what to call this event I'd be inclined to revert back to "unititled" ... but then that leaves us in an aporia of sorts. Can anyone else help us out here ... what to call this Un-Funeral, tentatively?

2010-05-28 08:07 guest-47: Bob: Really??

2010-05-28 08:07 Bob Dobbs: no bubble malaise for most confirms arakawa's being-building

2010-05-28 08:07 Alan Prohm: Guest 47 (who are you?) - Yes (Johannes?) I agree that this front must be crossed. Entering proposals, showing up at the old party with a new game. This a concrete outcome envisionable for a period of focussed collaboration. A problem can be identified in advance, preparatory work done apart, and then a coming together to hammer/sift things down/open. '

2010-05-28 08:08 Martin E. Rosenberg: Just curious: Is this you, Bob Dobbs? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._%22Bob%22_Dobbs

2010-05-28 08:08 Jondi: Bob, since you were not at the conference and I am not aware of anything you have written on AG, can you tell us how you have come to know AG and their work and the point of view you are tryng to bring out in this chat?

2010-05-28 08:09 guest-47: Bob: What is this about? I merely pointed out that the "climate" offers advantages to try to get A/G aporoach into the cities, rather than keep it in a monastery.

2010-05-28 08:09 guest-47: Agreed, alan (Johannes).

2010-05-28 08:11 Bob Dobbs: No, I'm not JR, my website is www.dobbstown.com.

2010-05-28 08:13 Bob Dobbs: I spent many hours talking to A&G when I lived in Manhattan. I was invited to the first conference but we moved to Maui, so I couldn't make it. Arakawa recognized that my writings, before I met him were dealing with the same concerns he was working on.

2010-05-28 08:13 Martin E. Rosenberg: That website is mentioned in this wiki article.....Like Jondi, as moderator, I would like to understand the productive line of your contributions.

2010-05-28 08:14 Bob Dobbs: We use astral spaces in our architecture, we have Arakawa with us here now. And we are serious.

2010-05-28 08:14 Madeline Gins: Bob, what does Caroline have to say at this moment?

2010-05-28 08:15 Alexander Duensing esq.: As to the exact name of what this event is -- I think it is critical for us to think of these terms as rigorous approximations-- we must remember to embrace abstraction-- to enter at least into what Piaget called the formal operations stage--and to go beyond.

2010-05-28 08:15 Martin E. Rosenberg: So this is like late-nineteenth century theosophical n-dimensional Hinton and Flatland and Ouspensky and Gurujief stuff?

2010-05-28 08:16 Bob Dobbs: Carolyn: medically, I've come to learn that we are 70% non physical, we can have control over our genes and we do not have to diet! We've continued from where we left off with you and Arakawa.

2010-05-28 08:16 Pia Ednie-Brown: Russell: 'untitled' is quite good. But maybe the aporia needs more texture to begin with. Something from Helen Keller Or Arakawa, perhaps?

2010-05-28 08:16 guest-54: Madeline, I'm so sorry. Now you will have to live differently. It's the work. I'm here. Call me. Anne

2010-05-28 08:17 guest-54: Anne Tardos (guest-54)

2010-05-28 08:17 Russell Hughes: Enough Bobbing around ... so, who'd like to comment on the trajectories of the RD project from here, given the obvious? That Madeline's is looking for co-collaborators is obvious, but are there new procedures to be devised specific to this ... context.

2010-05-28 08:17 Russell Hughes:

2010-05-28 08:19 Madeline Gins: Bob, Arakawa and I love / bioscleave / biotopologize you and Caroline, but we have always been highly dubious of your channeling of big names entities, as we have told you more than once. Also, you have not yet entered and moved around within our thinking – diagramming, but but.

2010-05-28 08:19 Martin E. Rosenberg: I would like to hear from Bill Mace on how linkages to academic disciplines, even hybrid ones like ecological psychology, might help expand the reseaerch required by the Reversible Destiny Project?

2010-05-28 08:20 Alexander Duensing esq.: Arakawa was always talking about starting a corporation.

2010-05-28 08:20 Blair Solovy: thanks russell. Madeline has been so strong in her determination to venture forth communally and take all this love and turn it into action

2010-05-28 08:21 Joel D. Robinson: Not a corporation, please.

2010-05-28 08:21 Russell Hughes: Good morning Pia: I'm flipping through HK or A now ... any section you had in mind? Be mindful, it is not to be commemorative, honorary or past tense - something "ing" congrunet with the times re: Lecercle?

2010-05-28 08:21 Joel D. Robinson: The RD foundation already exists, and will continue, no?

2010-05-28 08:22 Alexander Duensing esq.: "corporation" is just a launching off point

2010-05-28 08:23 Alexander Duensing esq.: in many senses

2010-05-28 08:23 Joel D. Robinson: Russel, I'm sure there are different ways of being commemorative, honorary and past-oriented.

2010-05-28 08:23 Pia Ednie-Brown: Russell> i hadn't got so far to have a particular thing in mind yet. just the thought that it was a place full of texturing - and perhaps texturing aporias

2010-05-28 08:26 Blair Solovy: Hello Pia and Joke, Melissa,etc I agree with you all about using the house for all kinds of research purpose

2010-05-28 08:26 Joel D. Robinson: For me, recently, the question has not so much been Helen Keller or Arakawa, but Art History or Arakawa. It seems the two latter terms - Art History and Arakawa - have been mutually exclusive. I don't suspect that Arakawa thought much of historians, nor did his friend Lyotard.

2010-05-28 08:26 guest-47: Martin; Re academia: A "creativity craze" has been coursing across the landscape in academia. No doubt primarily interested in exploiting creativity once again (applying systems theory to it..), but nevertheless, this "wave" has brought a lot of different disciplines together - and there is an absence of a direction for them (other than the obvious, ie new entrepreneurship forms etc.). There is an opening here perhap s.

2010-05-28 08:27 guest-55: Madeline and Arakawa, an exceptional team, a launching point for creativity and new ideas, Maddy will continue to pursue important ideas, Our hearts and thoughts are with you, Nancy and Art Lutzke

2010-05-28 08:27 Joel D. Robinson: guest 47 - we need that "creativity craze" to come to britain desperately. are there any other RD enthusiasts here? I feel like an island among neolithic stonehenges.

2010-05-28 08:28 Pia Ednie-Brown: Blair: yes. i feel that the house is very important for more exploring.

2010-05-28 08:28 Bill Mace: Martin -- Happy to oblige to the extent that I can catch my breath and ease into the mix of discussion topics at this late time in the event. The observations of Jondi and the people who lived at Mitaka that they more or less forgot to go "outdoors" for extended periods of time is enormously interesting. I'd like to know how common that experience is. Being in the Bioscleave House helped me see numerous examples of questions raised about "ordinary" living. Standing on a flat floor, the concept of "across the room" is trivial, for example. In the Bioscleave House that becomes a question. What does it mean to be "across the room?" These are when my observations at the house lead to questions that I think, in the end, do become the kind of questions Arakawa and Gins pose, albeit coming from a different angle in the beginning.

2010-05-28 08:29 guest-32: Ramona: I must leave the forum now. Much love to you Madeline and see you very soon.

2010-05-28 08:29 guest-47: Joel: Yes you already have it in the UK , too. It comes from management types, economists, planners,... There is actually better "research' on this coming out of the UK than the US. Remeber, it's a matter of bending thi "energy"...

2010-05-28 08:30 Joel D. Robinson: Yes but they are the ones shutting down the creativity in the philosophy departments and so on, but I take your point.

2010-05-28 08:31 Bob Dobbs: I don't do channeling. My friend, JW, allows pure positive Source energy to communicate with the ones who have a propensity to die. For example, we just spoke to Gurdjieff last week. You can hear it here in the 5th hour of an 11-hour public session: http://www.fivebodied.com/archives/audio/catalog/Bob_Audio/Cash_Flow/2010-05-19--Cash_Flow--Post-Cash_Flow_Tailgate_Party.mp3

2010-05-28 08:31 Martin E. Rosenberg: Those are very rich questions, as is your underscoring the point Jondi makes about how the extraordinary doesn't simply become ordinary with Bioscleave or Mitaka, but becomes the grounds for potentially an infinite series of folding explorations within--and yet without losing communal embrace......

2010-05-28 08:32 Martin E. Rosenberg: I am talking to Bill Mace, obviously....

2010-05-28 08:33 Alan Prohm: we could call it a wake - a wake

2010-05-28 08:33 Joel D. Robinson: a wake is a fine term

2010-05-28 08:33 Melissa Smedley: Yes folks, from afar, I hope to see evidence of getting to put the BiosCleave house to use and re research. I'm all for participating in some form of eventning of communal devising and will stay tuned and look for Darlinkas of living while leaving the area of my machines for now. Great lightbulbs on here. Love to Madeline and her pieces too. Waking my thoughts often.

2010-05-28 08:33 guest-47: a-wake.

2010-05-28 08:33 Alexander Duensing esq.: AWAKE! nice

2010-05-28 08:33 Joel D. Robinson: an awakening

2010-05-28 08:34 Alexander Duensing esq.: A darlingka awakening!

2010-05-28 08:34 Martin E. Rosenberg: Thank you for all your contributions Melissa. You have been a revelation!

2010-05-28 08:34 Alan Prohm: infinitagain's wake

2010-05-28 08:34 Elaine Angelopoulos: Hi Madeline, I was just able to attend the chat, and won't be able to be here for very long. But I wanted to give you my deepest condolences to you as it has already been echoed through out this chat and prior. Your personal journey if anything is a priority I would imagine, and your vehicle for healing, the un-memorializing and the continued refusal to die, still along with Arakawa, but in a different/transferred bodily state. I hope this makes sense...My advice is to not do everything at once, though I know it isn't your style.

2010-05-28 08:34 Russell Hughes: Ooh, I see Arakawa's online?

2010-05-28 08:35 Hiroko Nakatani: !!!

2010-05-28 08:35 Jondi: There is 25 minutes left in the chat, let's focus our attention on the concerns that Madeline has asked us to address and see if we can rally to find a way forward from our gathering here today.

2010-05-28 08:35 Martin E. Rosenberg: Thank you for coming Elaine!

2010-05-28 08:35 Benjamin Basan: Could you restate those concerns Jondi?

2010-05-28 08:36 Elaine Angelopoulos: I see that there is alot of attention to the Bioscleave House which is terrific. I think also there ought to be attention brought to the other work that Arakawa and Gins have produced together over the years.

2010-05-28 08:37 Joel D. Robinson: Good point Elaine. I've tried to push the garden element in mostly all of the work. The landscapes implicit in land-ing sites too.

2010-05-28 08:37 Arakawa: Dying is mighty inconvenient.

2010-05-28 08:38 guest-47: It seems to me that A/G's work has been driving on into urban scale for some time - and rightly so. That is also why I suggested to take it "main stream".

2010-05-28 08:38 Alan Prohm: On jondi's cue - the proposals need times and places - Johannes you could identify a competition and gather collaborators - anyone who likes the residency idea could find a time and place for an initial overlap to tes t-drive it, while further thinking goes into ongoing support structures - Erin Manning's Generating the impossible event is upcoming next year - one platform for a practical convergence

2010-05-28 08:39 Elaine Angelopoulos: I agree; I remember from the trip to the house there was some discussion about an internship or residency program being organized that would address the landscaping around the house. Is this an opportunity to involve some colleges in the area or programs that share the kind of cross pollination that the Bioscleave house reflects?

2010-05-28 08:39 Alexander Duensing esq.: guest 47-- I could not agree more

2010-05-28 08:39 Russell Hughes: To Alex from before: The "Architectural Body Corporation", or ABC to use the acronym, is strangely resonant of the mechanism of meaning ... maybe teaching the fundamentals to our friends in the Corporate sector of Bisocleave. Any other thoughts on what you dimensionalise this to be Alex?

2010-05-28 08:40 Peter Van Eerden: Hello Madeline, I hope you are doing okay, let me know if you need anything. I am truly glad to see that the pursuit for Reversible Destiny continues to live on, strongly, it is clear. I do not know from where the blow to mortality will come, perhaps it is on our horizon, but we shall continue to protest, steadily. Arakawa’s bodily loss does not slow the fight against transience at all, and in a strange twist may very well enhance our battle. Architectural procedures must involve all areas, which, when combined make us who we are (ie, philosophy, art, science, thought, architecture, medicine, personal interactions, etc). We start in-utero, and our fetal procedural actions at that time contribute to our life-generating bodily architecture, which is ultimately the brick wall of mortality. Perhaps we can find analogous interactions in our lives as time passes after our birth. My thoughts are with you, Peter

2010-05-28 08:40 Martin E. Rosenberg: I'm going to have to leave in a moment, as I go to cook dinner. Thank you all for gathering to make this cradling for Madeline, for all your contributions to AG3-Online, and the land events, and special thanks to Joke, Russell, Reuben, Joan, Rhoda and all others who have been nearby to sustain Madeline through this transformative moment. Please continue to gather around her. Best to all.........mer

2010-05-28 08:40 Joel D. Robinson: Well, the urban and social dimensions have certainly been prominent here,

2010-05-28 08:41 Benjamin Basan: Having a collaborative online platform that is a little slower than the live chat might help to flesh out some of the ideas that we have touched on here. From what I've read of descriptions, something like google wave?

2010-05-28 08:42 Russell Hughes: While we’re on the subject of Bioscleave, I’m going to have to insist that Madeline move herself in there PERMANENTLY … we can’t afford to lose you too!

2010-05-28 08:42 Arakawa: FUCK DINNER

2010-05-28 08:42 Alexander Duensing esq.: I maybe google wave

2010-05-28 08:43 Martin E. Rosenberg: OK, Arakawa, a few more moments.....

2010-05-28 08:43 Arakawa: CHOOSE EVERYTHING + MAKE REVERSIBLE DESTINY HAPPEN THROUGH PROCEDURAL ARCHITECTURE.

2010-05-28 08:43 Joel D. Robinson: Fuck Dinner - strangely redolent of Fuck Intercourse on one of the M of M panels?

2010-05-28 08:43 Benjamin Basan: I'd like to see these conversations turn into something slightly more organized and substantive, although the chaos is helpful too.

2010-05-28 08:43 Elaine Angelopoulos: When I went to visit the Darwin Martin Complex in Buffalo, what saved it as well as Greycliff were a kind of corporate oriented group that have revitalized these sites as landmarks. Granted the Biocleave house isn't a landmark but a living organic site. I would though consider how this kind of corporate body can reflect the philosophy (if that is at all possible.

2010-05-28 08:44 Benjamin Basan: I was thinking the same thing Joel.

2010-05-28 08:44 Jondi: yes Alan, generating the impossible workshop in Montreal would be a place for a newly configured start

2010-05-28 08:44 lex: Agreeing with Ben Basan. Google wave, or just a moderated email discussion that could be edited into a useful transcrapt.

2010-05-28 08:44 Joel D. Robinson: I know what you are saying, but it's a different platform Ben.

2010-05-28 08:44 lex: transcript.

2010-05-28 08:45 Alexander Duensing esq.: you too lex

2010-05-28 08:45 Alexander Duensing esq.: it's always good working with you

2010-05-28 08:45 Alexander Duensing esq.: let's post our organizing ideas to the forum

2010-05-28 08:47 Benjamin Basan: I'd be in favor of anything that does not include more mail in my inbox.

2010-05-28 08:47 Martin E. Rosenberg: Especially when Generating the Impossible consciously points to Arakawa and Gins' Reversible Destiny Project as a major precursor, as it most certainly will!

2010-05-28 08:47 Patricia Glazebrook: so where are we then? where do we go from here?

2010-05-28 08:47 Alan Prohm: Jondi, I would like to re-start-configure already far along; in other words we should identify a task, the impossible to reasonably generate in that timeframe and for that venue - madeline I would like to read biotopological diagramming so we can figure out how to get people doing it along and what surroundings are required

2010-05-28 08:49 Joel D. Robinson: Thanks to all for hosting this wonderful conference. Great to be in touch with some of you again. Good to see so many of you supporting Madeline. Wish I was closer to some of you.

2010-05-28 08:52 Alexander Duensing esq.: All---let's be sure to keep this going on the FORUM

2010-05-28 09:19 admin: Apologies folks (AG3 Tech support here). We had a technical glitch on the server which resulted in the chats slowing down and ultimately stopping. Back up now, and the forum is still open. Apologies again.

2010-05-28 10:52 Yumiko Furukawa: I would like to say thank you for everyone today.

2010-05-30 23:31 guest-117: Arakawa echoes the message of Isaiah that one day "death will be swallowed up forever"Raphael Kellman